Bringing it all back home with Sampa the Great and Adrian Dzvuke
Zambian rapper and songwriter Sampa the Great is set to bring her intoxicating mix of hip-hop, soul, and Afrobeat to Supreme Court Gardens on Friday, March 1, as part of Perth Festival 2024. Ahead of the show, Zimbabwe-born WAM Award-winner ADRIAN DZVUKE caught up with Sampa to chat about African influences, pioneering sounds, and advice for the next generation.
Sampa, it’s great to be talking with you. So you guys just landed?
Thanks! My band landed last night. It was a hectic land because their gear got left at the airport. Jet lag is the word of the day (laughs). We’re all so tired. You know, you try and figure it out. There’s the melatonin thing. There’s a sunlight method. There are so many methods, and they all don’t work.
I feel like the time difference is crazy, though. I should know because it’s the same as Zimbabwe.
Aye! From Zimbabwe?! Our neighbours.
Yeah. We have the better view of Victoria Falls, but let’s not… (laughs)
Oh, let’s not start this (laughs). That will be the whole interview. And our friend Niasha, who replaced my cousin Tio [in the band], this is the standing fight. Like, “Niasha, please. Don’t bring this up. Are we going to fight?”
It’s a friendly debate, though. So it’s fine.
Ha! Okay, “friendly.”
Well, I guess first of all, welcome to Perth.
Thank you. I think the last time we were here, we did a Billie Eilish support.
That’s huge.
All those shows were amazing for us because we’ve never played arenas before. We were gung-ho, this little band on this big stage. It was really beautiful. It gave us something to look towards or aim towards. Her fan base is so sweet. They’re so lovely. It was a really beautiful experience for me and my band.
Apparently Billie’s fanbase is very welcoming.
Oh, they’re so warm. I was like, ‘This is crazy’. They were screaming, they were following. We had our dancers there with us, they were following them. And the guys were all on TikTok. It was just like, I love this. It was a really beautiful experience. Shout out to Billie.
It’s like a whole different show as well when you play in front of that size crowd. I recently supported Coldplay when they came here.
Oooh!
I’ve never played to that many people before, and it’s a whole different game. You’re not performing to these people just over here [in the crowd].
You’re performing to everybody! And people who probably may not know your music or are listening to your music for the first time. But I think it’s up to the artist, and I make sure I do this with all my shows if I have a support: it’s to make sure people know that this artist is part of our family. Be open and listen to them. And I think that’s what her fanbase did that made us feel so welcome. So that was a beautiful experience.
That’s really cool. I think the first time I heard of you was… I think 2016? Back in the day.
Ew! (laughs)
I remember because I was kind of starting my journey and trying to think about… “I want to be an artist. I want to do all this stuff.” And there was no one in Australia that looked like me doing what you were doing. So I remember that really being inspiring, and I always wanted to ask you, What was it like coming up as not just an African but a female African artist in Australia at that time?
Thank you. It was extremely hard and daunting. I wish I could say it was so much fun. But like you said, when you don’t have examples of something and you’re sort of the first to lay down that path, you want to make sure you do a good job at it.
And I think, being hard on myself, one of my pushes and drives that may have been detrimental is to think, “Make sure this path is the best.” And you can’t do that. We look at our non-black counterparts and say, “You guys have permission to make mistakes. You have permission to have different styles and variations.” Whereas when I was starting in Australia, it was myself, it was Remi, it was Anfa [Rose]…
Manu Crooks…
It was Sensible J, it was Tkay Maidza. And it’s just like, “Okay, there’s five of us.” And not really five of us, but you can count how many black people on your hands. And we are all representing a race. And that is mad. That’s a lot of pressure to put on young kids. But I think we did a very beautiful job, as hard as it was, and as hard as the scars from that are to heal. But it wasn’t easy. We were stepping into a genre that didn’t look like us, but also a genre that was created by people who look like us.
That’s an interesting point.
So what a paradox that was to try and navigate. And then also me coming as an international student who hadn’t been raised or who hadn’t grown up in Australia. So I couldn’t give you the perspective of an African Australian. I could only give you the perspective of a Zambian who’s in Australia.
And that was very limited at the time, because I was also learning about Australia. I was learning about Indigenous Australia for the first time as well. So I felt so much pressure to represent African Australians, to represent Zambians on the continent, and to represent Indigenous Australians.
I just had so much weight. And I also didn’t know myself yet. So wanting to represent all these groups of people and also try to fit Sampa in there was something that was really tough. I’m happy to see that struggle created a pathway for your Genesis Owusus, who do everything.
Oh my gosh, yeah.
Whenever that dude gets on stage, I’m so happy, because not only is he free genre-wise to do whatever he wants, but he is also free to skip those doors that we had to pound down. So I’m very happy about that. But to answer your question, it was quite tough. There were a lot of people against us. There were probably a lot of people who felt threatened or offended by the fact that these black kids wanted to be heard. When you come into something that has been set and you want to change it, people get very puffy about it.
But for me, my thing was that I actually have the privilege to go back home, which a lot of my friends don’t have, so I’d rather be the one who gets chopped. And I do it loudly and do it proudly, and I make sure I create a space for everyone. So, as hard as it was, it was some gangster shit (laughs).
Do you feel like when you recently moved back to Zambia, your music and how you see the world changed? And do you think it has influenced your music? Obviously, you’ve tapped into Zamrock on your latest album, As Above, So Below. I loved watching the stories and the inspiration behind that, because I truly am a fan, and I think that was so beautiful.
Aw, thank you. Relocating was a bit tough because it was during the pandemic, and that was not planned. My dad got COVID at that time. A lot of Australia was closing up at that time. So it was sort of… I wouldn’t call it a rash decision, but once it was calculated, it was done. I didn’t think about anything else; it was “I’ve got to go home. Dad’s home.” And we left. Australia didn’t open up for the next eight to 10 years! No, eight months or something.
It felt like forever.
It was wild. It felt like I was starting over again [in Zambia] in a place that was familiar but also distant because I hadn’t started my career there. So it was like starting from ground zero with an industry that hasn’t yet been built. It was really tough, and still now there are obstacles that I’m like, “Okay, this is above me. I need more help to make sure this obstacle is solved.” But one of the beautiful things is that I got to discover that one of my uncles was the founding member of Witch.
No way.
So this is the funny thing about my dad. He will not tell you anything until something slips and he’s like, “Your uncle was in Witch.” It’s been a standing thing that there’s no one in my family who does music professionally, which was so scary. And to hear my dad casually just say that my uncle started a band—not any band—a band that was actually well known and is known globally.
Very influential.
That was crazy. What it did was validate this love for music that I thought, ‘Where did this even come from?’ You know? We actually got to meet my uncle, Uncle George. Groovy Joe. He’s not in Witch anymore, but he’s great friends with the lead singer, Mr. Jagari Chanda, who is here in Perth and performing at Perth Festival.
It means a lot to have mentors who are from where I’m from and who understand what I’m talking about, versus when you’re talking to your parents who don’t understand that language. To have someone to talk to about that has been one of the biggest reliefs of my life. That discovery really changed a lot when I relocated back home.
Also, I met other artists who are Zambian who sort of showed me what life would be like if I started my professional career in Zambia: the positives and the negative aspects of it. I felt that that perspective made me grow. And not that I was not appreciative of it before, but to be more appreciative of maybe not being raised at home. Because of the benefit that comes here.
There are definitely different opportunities.
A hundred percent. And that was a decision to stay in Australia and continue my career because I knew the industry was more built here. I gained knowledge that I wouldn’t necessarily gain at home, and then I could take that knowledge with me back home. So it was unconsciously the plan, but until you actually go back home and see for yourself, then you’re like, “Okay, [Australia] is the real deal.”
I guess touching on going back and having mentors and creatives that are from the same place that you’re from, I noticed there was a change in your live performance and band. You’ve moved towards an all-Zambian band. Or mostly Zambian, I should say.
And one Zimbabwean (laughs). It wasn’t a planned thing. Obviously, I couldn’t reach my Australian band because Australia was closed. So we couldn’t rehearse together. We couldn’t do a lot of what, you know, the majority of the people in the world could do.
And I’m here like, “There’s this music that is inspired by Zambia. Surely there are musicians in Zambia who are inspired by the same music because they grew up in Zambia.” And then Mag44, who is the executive producer of As Above So Below, is like, “Yeah, there’s this one, this one, this one.” And just listening to them play live, it was like, “This is what I try and translate in Australia to other musicians, and you all are just playing off the top of your heads.” Because we were both raised on the same culture, it just made it so much easier because you’re inspired by the same thing.
It’s in their blood.
And then translating the childhood stories, the childhood nursery rhymes, and the grandma’s proverbs and wisdom into a live performance was out of this world. I had never done that before. Everything was sort of hip-hop mixed with elements of African music, or our Australian version of hip-hop or soul music.
But when I went back home, we were doing Kalindula music. We were doing our grandma’s music. And it made it even easier to translate the stories into a live performance because that’s what we all grew up on. And it really is a family on stage; like, half the band is my family. My cousin is on the drums, my sister is singing, and my other cousin, who Niasha is stepping in for, also sings. And then there’s Sami and Les. So half of the band is my actual family.
It’s a family affair, for real. I think you can feel it in the shows as well.
Thank you.
There’s a difference and a switch between The Return and As Above, So Below. And your collaborations that you have on the latest album. I guess it does a really good job of mixing the traditional influences with the contemporary side of things. You go from having Angelique to having Denzel Curry. How do you feel you approached this new album differently compared to The Return?
The Return was definitely more planned out in terms of, “We’re going to do this style of music with this guitar, with these hip-hop drums, and we’re thinking of this person and this person to feature.” For As Above, So Below, we just went in there and were like, “Let us discover music that we grew up on but haven’t seen in a hybrid way or a hip-hop way.” So it will go from Kalindula and then go to Amapiano because I was also raised in Botswana. We just got a vibe. I think we actually created the base of the album within like a week and a half. And we were laughing through the whole thing. I was like, “Is this thing going to be serious?” Because we are all laughing.
I mean, I’ve only had two albums. All the projects beforehand have never been as spontaneous. It felt so easy. So easy. And I think that’s something that has never happened with The Return. Then, when it came to who would feature on it, it’s literally us listening to the song and being like, “Yo, this with a Zambian rapper would be crazy. Yo, we talk about living outside of this box that people create for us. Not staying in our lane, but creating new lanes. Maybe Denzel would be dope in this song.” Really unplanned. The Return was definitely like, “And this one, and that one.”
“This chord”
Yeah, exactly. Down to the T. But As Above, So Below, and I said it before, was one of the freest ones. It was just flow. And I love that about it because after wearing the armour for so long in Australia and making sure we represent well and it being so meticulous, we finally got the freedom to go home and be like, “Oh, everybody looks like me and sounds like me.”
Freedom, right?
Exactly. And with that came being able to just be spontaneous. That’s what I’m going to remember about As Above, So Below.
That’s amazing. I was going to ask this question because it’s probably just advice for me (laughs), but you’re all over the world, and you’re a very busy artist. How do you balance being an entertainer and still maintaining your activism and social and political discussion through your music? Because obviously sometimes it can be a divide. You might feel like you’ve got to:
Lean this way, lean that way.
How do you balance that?
I think because it’s something that has always been embedded in my music, it’s not a clear fight to separate. I understand if my music was more pop, then it would be, “Okay, now I have to balance this and that.” But even in As Above, So Below, we’re still talking about being an African woman, what we face, our government, our country.
The music is a reflection of our lived experience. And if that’s our lived experience, that will be in the music. It’s just never been a separation. It’s always been an honest representation of the diary. Hopefully it will never get to a point where I have to separate, which I don’t think I even do in my actual life. So, yeah.
Talking about being multidimensional, I think there’s a side to being an artist where you are the director of your own company, really, right? How do you, again, balance being that and also being on stage? Is there anything that you’ve learned from the process that you could teach other upcoming artists?
Yeah. You really do have to pay attention to the business aspect of it. No one is saying to be the Jay-Z of your business, but what you want to do is make sure you sustain your business in order for you to keep creating what you want to create in order for you to sustain yourself.
The starving artist sentiment is a real sentiment. And you want to make sure that, one, your music is able to sustain you but also is able to keep going, and you’re able to keep maintaining it. And obviously, when you’re still independent-adjacent, you want to make sure you ask, “Do I have a manager who can get me the opportunities I need for my music to make me money? Do I have an agent to get me the shows that I need to make money? Do I have a publisher to be able to get me the syncs and the TV slots in front of this person and that person? Do I have the distribution to make sure the world hears my music? Do I have an accountant to make sure all that shit is in place and everybody gets paid accordingly as we grow?”
So really, it’s about sitting down and creating the team and expanding that more and more slowly, and making sure you all have one mission in place.
Extend the vision.
Yeah, because a lot of the time, everybody wants to be the star player. And you realign it every two or three years. People’s lives change, people’s goals change, but that close-knit team is very, very important. And the plan around the music is very important.
That’s something that I’ve had to learn. It’s not a thing of, “I’ll just make the music; you build the business.” No, it’s your business as well. It’s your name. So never separate it and have somebody else control that, because at the end of the day, that’s your legacy. That’s what you want to give to your children. That’s what you want to retire from. So really pay attention to how your business is growing and being run, and how to expand and make it sustainable for you.
So, what’s your favourite thing to do in Perth?
Sunbathe and hopefully beach while I’m here. Zambia is landlocked. We’ve got the rivers, we’ve got the dams and all, but seeing a beach, I’m like, “Wow.”
Our beach is Victoria Falls (laughs).
That’s it! So hopefully I get to see the beach.
Was there anything else you wanted to say?
Shout out Perth. Shout out Adrian for an amazing interview. You were amazing. You made me feel comfortable to tell my story. I appreciate you. Thank you.
No worries. Thank you for taking the time. This was great.